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Subject: Polish PT-91M for Malaysia
Raff    5/18/2003 3:35:08 AM
The polish PT-91M tank (modernized T-72M1)is in my opinion one of the best MBT's in the world, an order from Malaysia (48 tanks) proves this. The PT-91M i very cost effective, for about half the price of an M1A1 you get a 125 mm smoothbore D-81TM main gun (2A46), laser warning reciever (SS1C "Obra"), radiation-absorbing paint, reactive armor, 1000 hp diesel engine, effective FCS (French SAGEM Savan-15, an automatic loader and new optimised ammunition. The PT-91M weighs only about 46 tons. It won against the Type 88 K1A1, T-80UD, Vickers Mark (Dont now Model).
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god of war    RE:Polish PT-91M for Malaysia   5/18/2003 8:23:30 AM
A good tank?! Malaysa should be glad it is not going into many wars. Did you see the awesome performance of the T72 in the Gulf War? How the M1A1 Abrams shells just bounced off its impenitrable armor? How it's 125mm gun had twice the range of the MiA1's 120mnm gun? NO. Do you know why? The T-7y2 is a pathetic tank in modern warfare, no matter how much you can upgrade it, it is still slow unreliabe, lacks a good punch, and has little armor. With reactive armor, you can count out infantry working closely with tanks, like in WW2. A hit to the tank would kill nearby infantry. "The polish PT-91M tank (modernized T-72M1)is in my opinion one of the best MBT's in the world" I beg to differ. Can it take on an M1A2, a Challenger2, or Markeva 4? NO! "about half the price of an M1A1" It costs half as much because it is half as effective, if even that. But, this is Malaysa, and there will probably be no wars with nations that have supperior tanks, so it is a good choice.
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Raff    RE:Polish PT-91M for Malaysia   5/19/2003 9:47:53 AM
The T-72 is not a pathetic tank, it was designed to perform a different role, rather then its western hunter-killer counterparts. The T-90 is a seriously modernized version of the T-72BM, just as the PT-91M, except it features a less effectve FCS (the T-90 of course). New ammunition used in the PT-91M can penetrate 600-700 RHA so is up to modern standards and can take out the M1A1 (without DU plates).
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Raff    RE:Polish PT-91M for Malaysia   5/19/2003 9:52:16 AM
The T-90 i very similar to the PT-91M, it differs by having an active electro-optic jamming unit (Sztora-1), a weaker engine, less accurate 2A42M2 main gun and the ability to shoot using giuded missiles. The T-90 is cheaper, as its FCS i russian-made and not up to date, while the french Savan-15 system is top-notch
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MikkoL    Some things to consider   5/19/2003 1:21:50 PM
Different countries' needs in the MBT area differ extensively and thus all countries can't be compared with each other. People often think that the optimised MBT for any country is the one possessing best maneuverability, protection and armament but in fact many other things are often more important when countries deside what (if any) MBT's to purchase. Generally in many areas of the world ( large flat deserts of Middle East, maybe Europe etc. ) tanks like M1 or Leopard II rule the battlefield, but there are equally much countries for which buying such vehicles just can't do. The obvious factor is of course the price, another important one is the environment. For countries like Malaysia buying a M1 or LeoII isn't an option (as can be seen in the list of a tanks they chosed to test), as they are way too heavy and cumbersome to be used in any effect in jungles and soft ground, and in close quarters battles likely to take place their virtues shown in ranged battle are at once gone. If we look at Malaysia, for example, it's not propable that war in their country would be a one won or lost in tank battles. However, if these kind of limited duels arise, even elderly tank types have sufficient chances of taking on heavy modern MBT's. If you look at it, it's obvious that in countries like Iraq older generation tanks or ones developed for different roles say T-72 (and the Iraq T72 has nothing to do with PT-91) are kicked 100-0 by newer generation M1A2 and Challenger. But should they be hauled to Malaysian jungles to take 1-on-1 with PT-91, I wouldn't put my bet on them, even with lousy 70's vintage unmodernised Iraq-type T72 has it's chances. For their needs, good anti-infantry/vehicle firepower is essential for a tank, as is the low weight and generally good mobility, possibility of economical use and easy maintenance etc. So even when taking a look at these basic aspects, it's obvious that the Polish design is great for their needs. However, because of this, we can't rate PT-91 any better tank than say M1 or vice versa. I think it's ridiculous to quarrel about "which is the best MBT of the world" (this board is full of these) because in their own ways many are great ones in a role they are made for. Instead we should concentrate to look which tank best fills it's task in their intended field, doing it effectively and cost effectively. Considering the circumstances, I think it's very rational that they ended up to order this fine piece of armoured equipment. The final factors which led in the decision to prefer PT-91 over it's contestors can only be guessed (well, after all they can even have something to do with countries relations and such things). If you think that the M1A2 is the ultimate weapon, fine, I don't want to chance your minds. But remember that even the all mighty Tiger, once seen to be as dominating, ultimate and highly hyped weapon as the M1/Chal or LeoII nowadays must had been employed correctly to get everything out of it. In most cases, Tiger wasn't a right tool to make the day. It was PzIV, M4 of T34. Just think about it.
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Raff    RE:Some things to consider   5/20/2003 10:08:23 AM
Well i must admit the western tanks are far more roomy and comfortable;)
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hornet    RE:Polish PT-91M for Malaysia   10/20/2005 10:52:21 PM
I think PT-91M is a capable tank. Even though it adopt the old T-72 design it however cannot be compared with its origin as some did. In a way it is a different tank. In the past T-72 created so much problems due to its quality, performance and reliability. However post-communist era created a new challenge especially to companies which hold the license to built the tank. Companies like Bumar Labedy, I think, has to compete and address the aforementioned problems for market. A lot of T-72 variations created by several countries caused stiff competition. So when Bumar Labedy won the $400M contract to build the tank it is a sign that T-72 can be improved and adopted with current technology. Marriage with western technology has its reasons. First to improve the tank capabilities to a level which is comparable to the western standard if not better. Secondly to eliminate total dependecy to the traditional supplier such as the USA which has the tendency to block critical supply if unfavourable situation arise. This can be clearly seen with the purchace of Mig-29N and SU-30MKM. Some suggested that Malaysia should buy the best western tank such as the M1A1, Challenger 2 or Leopard 2 variants. These are costly tanks to buy, maintain and operate, and I have a doubt that they would provide similar version as they have. Not to mention the weight and geographical factors that have to be addressed to. Of course these tanks have better armour but recently I saw pictures in the internet which shown M1A1/2 being damaged by mysterious weapon. Therefore it is all down to training, tactics, logistics and maintenance. In the case of PT-91M which will be inducted into service in 2006 will be the test of all these factors.
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doggtag    RE:Polish PT-91M for Malaysia   10/21/2005 12:05:11 AM
Being the tropical "paradise" that it is, I wonder if those Malaysian models will have adequate air conditioning systems installed. Cramped as they are compared to western MBTs (do Russian designs still limit crew height?), I can't imagine being buttoned up inside one in the tropics without sufficient A/C to keep the inside bearable.
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:Some things to consider   10/21/2005 2:46:47 PM
yeah, mikkol, but thats what makes it fun. analysising and giving your opinion like you did.....and yes, you can decide which is the best at whatever catagory as it is a generic the best infantry weapon...(depends on environment, mission, financing, training..and I can go on and on, but I wont)thusly, it can be commented on....
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flamingknives    RE:Some things to consider   10/21/2005 5:49:04 PM
If it's in a competition with Vickers MBT, Mk1 or Mk3, then the role is in no way going to be comparable to that of a modern MBT. The Vickers is a '60s era tank comparable to the M60.
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Yimmy    RE:Some things to consider   10/21/2005 6:11:12 PM
I can't believe it was in the offering, it hasn't been made for decades! I hear the Kuwatis loved it.
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