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Subject: Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War
HeavyMetal    3/13/2005 3:38:24 AM
Indian 1st Armoured Division's failure at Chawinda The major Indian attack of 1965 War was launched by the Indian 1st Armoured Division opposite Chawinda on 8th September 1965. The Indian formation had four tank regiments as opposed to 1 tank regiment of Pakistan Army! There was no infantry on both flanks of the Pakistani unit and only one battalion in its rear yet the Indians miserably failed to outflank this unit and reach Sialkot-Pasrur Road opposite Badiana or to the South of Pasrur! While two Indian tank regiments advancing on a narrow front unimaginatively battered frontally with a single Pakistani tank regiment, two Indian tank regiments in the rear were not employed by an Indian GOC and his brigade commander paralysed by intertia vacillation and procrastination ! This was not a case of a more martial morally superior Muslim soldier blunting a less martial Hindu soldier at Panipat but a failure on part of two Indian commanders sitting many miles in the rear! Thus the truth in Clausewitz's pronouncement on higher leadership “marches to turn a flank, right or left are easily combined …but let a general try to do these things like Frederick the Great …it required the King's boldness, determination and strength of will to see the things in this light and not to be led astray and intimidated by the danger of which 30 years after people still wrote and spoke”. The most interesting aspect of the first engagement opposite Gadgor being discussed is that Pakistan's 25 Cavalry which faced the Indian Armoured Division was not aware that it was facing an Indian Armoured Division while the Indian Armoured Division commander was also not aware that there was only one tank regiment opposing his tank division! If both knew what was the actual case then 25 Cavalry's commanding officer may have been paralysed by irresolution and inertia and history may have been different and the Indian commander may have gathered greater resolution and bypassed the unit! However, this is the realm of speculation! More important is what actually happened! The Indian commander decided not to outflank the Pakistani's in front because of three reasons i.e (1) that his four tank regiments were opposed by two tank regiments (2) no news of his left flank protection force (3) that his rear was under attack. At the end of the day the Indian divisional commander withdrew his division back and stayed inactive till 10th September 1965, during which Pakistan reinforced the area with its 6th Armoured Division! The battles that followed from 11th September till ceasefire could not be decisive since initial Indian superiority at the decisive point had been compromised! The reason why the Indian commander thought that he was faced with two tank regiments was Pakistan's 25 Cavalry's unusually extended line of defence, his flank protection force had lost his way because of poor map reading and strayed out of wireless contact and the attack on his rear which unnerved him was an exchange of fire between his left flank protection force and his own artillery guns! These three reasons were considered enough by the Indian GOC to withdraw eight miles to the rear and do nothing for the next two days! After 11th September when the Indians resumed advance the Pakistanis had brought reinforcements and there was no room for a battle of manoeuvre!
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HeavyMetal    RE:Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War   3/13/2005 8:11:47 PM
and India lost the 48 and 65 and 99 wars. the 71 war, was a war which was fought on massive un even terms. it was our Pearl Harbor.
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GautKaps    RE:Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War   3/13/2005 8:18:10 PM
So what did we lose or what did the Pakis gain..... We dont see any instrument of surrender on the net or somethin even remote to the one I posted for the '71 war... remember when we hit,we'll hit hard and it's been hurting you Pakis for the last 34 yrs....
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HeavyMetal    RE:Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War   3/13/2005 8:22:30 PM
hahhahaha. you hit? man, your cowardly attack against pakistani forces who were so far from home and you call that a victory? i guess, for india and the indian military thats all they can hope to manage. our army was so far from home, and we were surrounded. it was like our tobruk, singapore or even pearl harbor. sure we lost that war, but it wasn't fought on fair terms. but i guess thats the motto of the indian army. how pathetic. please why don't you go buy some fireworks and go celebrate.
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GautKaps    RE:Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War   3/13/2005 8:33:05 PM
Whats pathetic is that 93K soldiers surrendered without putting up a fight even....You need to redefine cowardice when it comes to the great Paki Army? Of course we celebrated and laughed at your Paki cowardice....I thot u said 1 Paki soldier=10 Indian soldiers...Why would the cowards surrender...Wasnt East pakistan home enuf then or the cowards were too scared to open another front.. Go get a life loser....or better get registered with the INS in case you havent done for the year 2005....
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HeavyMetal    RE:Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War   3/14/2005 2:25:40 AM
Why don't you go watch some Indian TV and get brain washed all over again by your propoganda machine which is known as ZEE Tv or Star TV. Our 93K soldiers surrendered after hard fighting against the bengali and indian soldiers. i would really like to see how india would fared in such a condition. but i guess, indian soldiers would have surrened on the 1st second of the breakout of hostilities. thats how low regard there is for indian soldiers and their army. and lastly i am an american citizen, and by the way, isnt it time for you to go back to work, i think you need to help fred from missouri find his luggage. thats all indian these days are good for, telemarketing. i get calls from you indian losers every day. please tell your fellow workers to improve their accent before they call. it looks like i am talking to apu whenever you indian outsoucing job stealers call.
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PeregrinePike    RE:Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War   3/14/2005 8:56:00 AM
HeavyMetal, just googling for India-Pakistan wars spews out mindless, jingoistic cr@p from both sides... which is what I suspect you have been doing. All three wars were more nuanced than you might want to believe in your teenage fantasises of Muslim vs. Hindu death-matches... lets look at for a succinct, neutral, unbiased view-point ok? 1945: "The first war arose over Kashmir , in NW India, in 1947 when Muslim subjects revolted and were supported by Pakistani troops. The Hindu ruler appealed to India for aid, agreeing to cede the state to India in return. India moved quickly to consolidate its position in Kashmir, pushing Pakistan's “volunteers” back. Conflicts also arose in the Punjab and in Bengal. The undeclared war in Kashmir continued until Jan. 1, 1949, when a truce was arranged through UN mediation; negotiations between India and Pakistan began and lasted until 1954 without resolving the Kashmir problem. Pakistan controlled part of the area, Azad (Free) Kashmir, while India held most of the territory, which it annexed in 1957." >> IMHO its an overall draw, with both sides getting only parts of what they wanted. But since Pakistanis held territory, and lost them it was a military loss of some kind. 1965: "The second war began in Apr., 1965, when fighting broke out in the Rann of Kachchh, a sparsely inhabited region along the West Pakistan-India border. In August fighting spread to Kashmir and to the Punjab, and in September Pakistani and Indian troops crossed the partition line between the two countries and launched air assaults on each other's cities. After threats of intervention by China had been successfully opposed by the United States and Britain, Pakistan and India agreed to a UN-sponsored cease-fire and withdrew to the pre-August lines. Prime Minister Shri Lal Bahadur Shastri of India and President Ayub Khan of Pakistan met in Tashkent, USSR (now in Uzbekistan), in Jan., 1966, and signed an agreement pledging continued negotiations and respect for the cease-fire conditions. After the Tashkent Declaration another period of relative peace ensued." >> This time a military draw, but a political win for Pakistan -- they get to keep some territories in the Rann of Kuchh region. 1971: "Indo-Pakistani relations deteriorated when civil war erupted in Pakistan, pitting the West Pakistan army against East Pakistanis demanding greater autonomy. The fighting forced 10 million East Pakistani Bengalis to flee to India. When Pakistan attacked Indian airfields in Kashmir, India attacked both East and West Pakistan. It occupied the eastern half, which declared its independence as Bangladesh , on Dec. 6, 1971. Under great-power pressure, a UN cease-fire was arranged in mid-December, after Pakistan's defeat. Pakistan lost its eastern half, an army of 100,000 soldiers, and was thrown into political turmoil. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto emerged as leader of Pakistan, and Mujibur Rahman as prime minister of Bangladesh. Tensions were alleviated by the Shimla accord of 1972, and by Pakistan's recognition of Bangladesh in 1974, but tensions have periodically recurred." >> READ: WHEN PAKISTANIS ATTACKED INDIAN AIRFEILDS!!!! It was a TOTAL loss for Pakistan. PERIOD. Militarily it was routed, politically it was embrarassed, and diplomatically it was a praiha even with its allies in the West. So thats it, man. Just accept it.
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GautKaps    RE:Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War   3/15/2005 1:12:26 AM
Looks like in 1971 it was the Pakistani Army which resorted to battle first! nevertheless,inspite of Pakistani soldiers occupying those strategic heights during kargil our jawans trudged up the path of death and fought you guys.This is the essence of a true soldier. Now go and ask anyone of your kindergarten friends and they;ll tell you that its unheard of 93K soldiers to surrender without putting up a fight... We all know what you warriors of Islam and Allah are capable of:killing women and children in schools,shopping malls;unarmed teenagers and the list goes on.and of course they'll dare not fight an army-they'll scoot back to their caves likes're not even men---you filthy grunting pigs.....throwing bombs in crowded market places or hijacking planes to kill innocent people is ratified in the Koran-not in this civilised world.... We Indians may have accents but thankfully we have jobs.We do not have a bleak future like what you,K2 or Sharrukh have.Your destiny's been wriiten the day you were born in Pakistan...You were born in a hell hole and will end up in hell to give comapny to 72 virgins and a PIMP!
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ForJustice    RE:Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War   3/15/2005 11:51:10 AM
I first say Mr.Heavy(Crack,Harebrained)Metal shut up your ass whole(I think u got it).Don't open ur dirty ........ and this place.
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Gladiator    RE:Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War   3/31/2005 8:52:08 PM
India not only lost this war, but the 47 and 99 wars as well. what a sad state of affairs for such a big country
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GautKaps    RE:Indian Military Defeat in 1965 War   4/2/2005 9:57:30 PM
Sinc we lost all these wars why does Pakistan still cry hoarse abt kashmir... The truth as I pointed out is that Pakistan will barely be able to retain its identity in the next few years once Balochistan breaks free and the Iranians and Afghanis and the Indians take over their spoils.....
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